“This job is way more important than it’s often given credit for” with Carolin Wendt
The Community Lounge Season 1 Episode 8
Today’s guest is Carolin Wendt, author of The Pocket Mentor for Game Community Management, and currently Lead International Community at CD PROJEKT RED.
We chat about why and how Carolin wrote her book on community management. And Carolin gives some great tips for people wanting to break into community management.
Games mentioned in this episode: Cyberpunk 2077, The Witcher, GWENT, Dragon Age: The Veilguard, Neverwinter Nights, The Plucky Squire
Find Carolin on:
The official site for “The Pocket Mentor for Game Community Management” book.
The Community Lounge is brought to you by Feature Upvote: Painlessly collect feedback from your players. More insights, less noise.
Transcript
Steve McLeod
I’m Steve McLeod and you are listening to the Community Lounge, the podcast where community managers from the video games industry tell their story, talk about the challenges they face, and share tips to help other community managers do their job better.
Today I chat with Carolin Wendt, author of “The Pocket Mentor for Game Community Management”.
We chat about why and how Carolin wrote her book. And Carolin gives some great tips for people wanting to break into community management.
Welcome to the show, Carolin.
Carolin Wendt
Hi, nice to be here and thank you for the invitation.
Steve McLeod
You’re welcome. It’s actually when I was starting to prepare for this podcast, you were one of the first names I had on my list of people I wanted to contact. So I’m really glad you’re available to be here.
I have to tell you how I found out about you. Mostly we’re going to be talking about you, but I just want to tell this little story. I was at Brighton in June or July at their Develop conference and there was a meeting I was supposed to have that got canceled at the last moment.
So I thought, what am I going to do instead? And I looked at the program and there was a roundtable for community managers happening in the room right next to where I was standing. So I thought, well, they’re the people use my product. I’m going to go in there and listen to them. And when it came time for people to share ways to learn how to do the job better, your book was mentioned by like five people.
Carolin Wendt
Oh really? I have no idea. That’s so cool.
Steve McLeod
I hadn’t heard of the book but I made a note of it, I went home, I bought it, I read it and put your name down on the list. So I’m really glad that you’re here.
Carolin Wendt
Oh, that makes my day. That’s so nice. I had no idea.
Steve McLeod
Good to hear it.
So you literally wrote the book on community management. But before we talk about the book, tell me what it means to be Lead International Community.
Carolin Wendt
I think that is different a bit depending on the company you are in. But at CD Projekt Red, what it means is that I work hand in hand with our global team to align strategies, meaning that our company, we of course have an English speaking presence which is led by the global team. But then we’re also present in many of the markets where we have voiceover for our games. So for example in Brazil or in France and Germany, in Japan, Korea, China and so on.
And my job is to lead eight community managers at the moment that handle all these different markets and to make sure that they have everything they need to do Their job well, but at the same time align their strategies with the global ones to make sure nothing falls through the cracks, everything is nice and cohesive. Right. That our presence in France, for example, doesn’t sound weirdly different to the global one while still having a sort of local charm. So my job is that. And then of course, all the, let’s say, bureaucratic sides that goes into being a lead, right?
Handling paperwork and spreadsheets and presentations and strategy. But yeah, that’s the short answer for what this means.
Steve McLeod
So how does that look in a typical day?
Carolin Wendt
I wish I could say something else, but lots of meetings. Lots of meetings.
I would say half of my day minimum I spend in meetings to sync with my team.
Sync with my team, but also sync with the global team. Be in touch with our brand team, marketing team, PR teams. Because we have a lot of power in that we have our publishing structure within the studio and not as a separate publisher. So that means that we can impact a lot of things, but that also comes with a lot of meetings about how we impact these things and how this works and how we set this up.
And then it’s different. Some days that are a bit more quiet, I have more time to say, you know, go on Steam, go on discord, check social media.
Actually talk to community, sadly, it’s becoming less and less part of my daily job because I have other things to do and then I review a lot of presentations. I work on, as I said, strategy decks. So for example, I will prepare together with my German community manager or the Brazilian head of comms, in her case, decks on this is the market, this is what works very well, this is what the competitors are doing.
So a bit of everything. And sometimes I have events, which is great, right? Sometimes we have community events at things like gamescom or sometimes I get to go to SGF in LA to, you know, meet other community managers, see how the community initiatives are on there. So it’s exciting.
Steve McLeod
How do you feel about the fact that you don’t get to do much hands on stuff?
Carolin Wendt
That makes me sad. And everyone at this company is probably sick and tired of hearing me talk about how sad it makes me. Because for me it’s genuinely, and I know it sounds kitschy, but it’s my favorite thing about the job, to actually hear what people have to say, to talk with people, to make a personal connection with them.
I had to make quite a strong cut initially because I changed role roughly two years ago, not quite, but almost two years ago. And before that I was responsible for the German speaking communities myself. So Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and now we have someone else that I actually brought over together with our German PR manager. We brought him over from GWENT, which was part of our game to come to the German speaking communities.
And at the beginning I was very too much hands on because it felt like, you know, it’s my thing, it’s my people. I curated this. Like I felt the strong need to be there and to respect his autonomy a bit more, I had to step out. But now I’m trying to ease my way back into it slowly because I just feel that I miss it. So, you know, I dabble in it.
Steve McLeod
It’s mixed feelings there, but yeah, it’s hard. One of the problems with a career path, right, is you kind of stop doing the thing that you actually love doing to some degree.
Carolin Wendt
Yeah, but I still do it. So I make a point of I’m trying to be on Discord daily, right? At least say hi to people to be there. I still go to the events, which is really important to me. Like I wouldn’t want to skip a community event, right?
That’s the place where you actually see them in person.
So yeah, I think it just took me a bit to get accustomed to a new role. And the more I grow into it, I think the more I actually find space in my head as well to be out and talk to people again.
Steve McLeod
Let’s go back into the past. Tell us how you came to be a community manager or work in community management.
Carolin Wendt
By sheer accident, like a very lucky accident. So actually I have to rewind a bit longer why I’m actually in gaming and this is very painful for people that try to get into gaming nowadays because, you know, the older you are, the easier it was to go into gaming, which is an unfair truth. And when I joined the industry roughly 10 years ago, I came in because I was actually studying political science. I was in a semester abroad in New Zealand and I had to do an internship and I literally just decided, okay, I don’t want to do politics actually, I want to do gaming. I love games, let’s go. And I emailed, I think five or six companies from the German, let’s say political sphere. So like gaming associations and so on.
I emailed them cold and said, hey, I want to work. Do you have an internship? And I was just lucky that one of them was around about that time looking for an intern for the German Video Game Award for the award committee. And it just worked, was just magic timing. No plan and they took me on.
Steve McLeod
With no experience and no background in the industry.
Carolin Wendt
Exactly. That’s what I’m saying. Sometimes luck. You know, the good thing is that because it’s a foundation that is a joint venture by the games industry and the German government, having a political science background actually helped because the job would entail a lot of conversations with ministry people, you know, and it was good that I had this background, but it was definitely luck and being at the right moment in the right time.
Steve McLeod
So you became an intern in the Games Award Association.
Carolin Wendt
They’re called Digital Game Culture Foundation. Yes. And they are basically the executive organization of the German Video Game Award.
I did this as an internship. They took me on because they liked what I was doing and actually stayed there for roughly four years.
And I was lucky that one of the jury members for the award was the current head of comms for Germany, Austria, Switzerland at CD Projekt Red. And he saw, like, we worked together once a year because I was also part of the people taking care of the jury.
And while I was at my former job, I already started taking on some more communication roles. I was starting to build up a Twitter. I was building up the newsletter. I was handling this because I wanted to get into writing.
And at some point, I was becoming envious of people on the other side, you know, all the industry people that I was working with. And I was like, I want to be on that side of the industry, not on this side.
And he heard it through the grapevine that I was open for changing. And he actually reached out to me and said, hey, we are looking for a community manager. How about that?
Steve McLeod
That’s fantastic.
Carolin Wendt
Yeah. And that’s why I’m saying it’s for people nowadays that are looking, you know, they have a master’s degree, they studied communication, they have done this on the side, and they still struggle finding a job sometimes. And I have to come in and say, well, 10 years ago, if you were lucky, you know, that’s why it’s always hard to give tips to job applicants nowadays, because everything is changing so fast. But anyway, so I still applied. You know, I still had to go through the whole application process talking to our now community director and our VP of comms.
And, yeah, that’s how I got into community management.
Steve McLeod
If I was better organized, I would have bookmarked the section of your book that actually talks about this, that there is no standard path into community management. And I’ve asked everybody on this podcast, this is episode number eight, and everybody has a different story about how it happened, which must be very frustrating for people wanting it to happen, especially the current climate of the industry.
Carolin Wendt
Yeah, I think it can be frustrating, but it can also be empowering because there’s also no wrong path of doing it. Right? There’s no right path. But that also means that whatever you do, if you’re passionate about it, that’s always my point, right.
You shouldn’t treat it as, oh, I just try to go into community management because I want to get into gaming. I think those days are long over where it was this kind of sneaky entryway into going to the games industry because now the competition is very hard. But I think that if you’re passionate about community management, if you’re passionate about improving the game, working with devs, but being kind of on the front facing side, then you will find a way to get into it. You just have to be crafty about it. So for example, our, and he doesn’t mind me saying this, but our German community manager right now, he actually came from the community. We recruited him because he was super active in the GWENT community.
And when time came for us to look for a community manager for that game, we actually hired him. Out of the community manager, we have someone else that used to be a moderator on the forums and was hired and is now quite high up in the ranks. Right. We have someone else who was hired because he was very passionate cosplayer and happened to have experience. Right. And I think of course you benefit from having a degree. People always ask me like, should I study, should I not study? It’s a personal choice. It also depends if you’re country has free tertiary education or not. Right?
Steve McLeod
You’re in Germany where there is free tertiary education.
Carolin Wendt
Yeah, exactly. Like I paid €500 a year.
So I don’t feel comfortable recommending it to people that, you know, pay thousands of dollars, for example. But in my case I benefited from it a lot because, you know, I grew up, I learned structures, I learned certain processes that help me now even in my job. But you don’t have to study. I think more importantly you can volunteer, for example, if you are physically able to do so. And if you’re geographically around events, for example, you could volunteer to go to gaming events, be there, make connections, or you could, you know, run your own little community club or gaming club or so many ways where you can gather experience.
If you are not able to do so because you’re living very remotely, for example, right. You can start building community wikis. There’s so many things of building up experience without already being on the job. That I think that’s a very, I don’t know, it’s a big benefit for people trying to get in because for sure, I, and many people I speak to, we watch out for this. When we get a cv, we check. Okay, you know, what do they actually do?
Steve McLeod
So it shows that, A, you can actually get stuff done, and B, it also helps you develop the connections that… It sounds like quite a lot of your recruiting happens from people you’re already in contact with.
Carolin Wendt
Yes and no. I think I often get asked. So wait, let me rewind a bit. It’s not that I do this, but a lot of people reach out to me on LinkedIn or Twitter back in the day, hey, I am trying to recruit for this position.
Do you have someone in mind that could do it? And how can I recommend you if I don’t know you?
Steve McLeod
Gotcha.
Carolin Wendt
That’s always what I try to tell people. Make connections with people. Not for gaining things, not with the objective of finding a job, but just because, you know, you never know who might open a studio in 10 years or who might be in a hiring position in five years, or just who gets asked by someone that knows someone that is looking for a community manager.
Steve McLeod
It’s a very insular industry, actually, I’m is discovering.
Carolin Wendt
Because we are such an insular industry, that was one of the motivators to write the book.
Steve McLeod
Speaking of the book, tell me more about why you wrote it.
Carolin Wendt
Yes. Another moment of luck. This is very frustrating for people that will listen to this. So I was actually contacted by my editor, which I don’t know if this is a very common thing. I think it’s not. I think it’s a giant stroke of luck.
So picture me making a New Year’s commitment of not taking on too many things anymore and saying no to things. And then two weeks later in January, getting a random DM in my Twitter inbox of someone saying, hey, I’ve seen your experience and I’ve seen how you work. And I am looking for someone that can write a book about community management for the series at this publishing house. And I was like, this is a scam. I’m sure I told him by now. I was like, I fact checked you. I googled your name. I checked on LinkedIn because I couldn’t believe that someone would just reach out.
And because I was committed to not taking on too many things, I was about to reject it.
Yeah. I was about to say, “You know what? Thank you for the offer.”
And then I told my partner, and he was. He said it not in these nice words, but I want to be PG on the podcast. He basically said, “are you out of your mind?”
Steve McLeod
“Are you effing insane?”
Carolin Wendt
Yes.
And then I was thinking about it, and of course he was right. And I was thinking about, we are such an insular industry, and I’m always frustrated by no one sharing information.
And I didn’t feel for a while, I didn’t feel like I would be the right person to write it, you know, because I was like, well, who gives me the right to be the voice, but one of the voices of talking about it. But then I thought that, you know, many people reach out to me for advice. If I go to events, people come up and ask me, hey, how can I get in? What would you recommend people ask me on LinkedIn if I can check their CVs, and if I have time, you know, I don’t have that much time, but I would try.
If someone is extremely polite, I will maybe have a call with them, like an hour just to, you know, hear their thoughts, help them a bit, mentor them. And I was like, okay, this is not the most efficient way of doing this if you want to help as many people as possible, right? So basically, the motivation for actually writing the book was, okay, how can I do something that maybe demystifies this a bit and gives people at least a tiny help on their step to becoming a community manager? Because for sure, I would have liked to have a book telling me what this is, because it was a lot of trial and error for me.
So, yeah, a bit of luck mixed with – big luck mixed with, you know, the motivation already being in my head.
Steve McLeod
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Steve McLeod
Did you ever find out why the editor contacted you and not say somebody else?
Carolin Wendt
No. And I didn’t ask because I was afraid that the answer would be sad.
I want to believe that it wasn’t pure coincidence. I think, because it was a while ago, because the whole process took quite some time of writing a book and doing research and signing the agreements, so I think that back then – and that’s why I’m so sad about the current state of Twitter – I was tweeting that I became a senior and I think it was just by chance the algorithm had, you know, he was probably looking for a community manager. And right now, at that moment, I announced my promotion and a lot of people were engaging with it and I think it was just like the universe coming together, but I don’t know. That’s my theory.
Steve McLeod
Okay. Have I actually said the name of the book during the podcast? I think I haven’t. So it’s The Pocket Mentor for Game Community Management.
Carolin Wendt
Exactly. At CRC Press. And it’s part of a series that’s called the Pocket Mentor Series for the Games Industry. So there’s also one, which is funny because she’s now a colleague of mine, a Pocket Mentor for Video Game Writing by Anna Megill. She’s also working for our Boston studio. And then there’s a couple of others and I’m sure there will be more to follow.
And the whole idea for this was a book that is so small that you can carry it around in your bag, you know, when you, I don’t know, go to university or sit somewhere or go meet friends and you can read up on things.
And also specifically targeted at juniors or people who want to break into the field.
So I always say that I’m waiting for someone to write the senior edition so I can read it! Because this is kind of until your first year of the industry in community management is over.
So I know some people are now writing books about community management and I’m really eager for them to finish it. So I can, you know, I can read them.
Steve McLeod
Part two.
Carolin Wendt
Yes, exactly.
Steve McLeod
So tell me, Carolin, what did you learn yourself by creating the book?
Carolin Wendt
Lots of things. So one for sure was what we already talked about. The fact that it’s very hard to give advice when the industry is so fast paced and changing so much. Because I was thinking of all the things that I Learned back like 10 years ago.
I don’t think these things apply anymore, right. I did go as part of the book. I did a lot of research and I think the most entertaining part, I would say it in a positive way, the most entertaining part was going for three months through all the job listings I could find from the industry all over the world, looking for community managers.
I was spending my evenings just not only on LinkedIn, but all over the Internet, on the pages of the companies themselves. And just really, I took screenshots of all of them and then I put them in spreadsheets.
Like, what are they asking for? What are they looking for? Years of experience?
And what I learned is that there’s no definition. Like, no definition at all. Everyone is looking for completely different things.
I have a German word that doesn’t translate, which if there’s someone German, I’m sorry, for everyone else, “Eierlegende Wollmilchsau”. It doesn’t translate, I’m sorry. It’s basically the thing that can deliver everything you want but doesn’t exist.
And so that’s one thing that I learned. And then something else that I also learned was maybe not learned, but reaffirmed is that the job is way more important than it’s often given credit for.
Steve McLeod
Of course.
Carolin Wendt
Really?
Steve McLeod
That’s interesting. Tell me more about that.
Carolin Wendt
Yeah, of course I’m very biased and of course I’m subjective because it’s my job.
But while I was going through it and I was, you know, in my head I’m trying to structure, okay, what parts do you really need to know at the beginning and what maybe, you know, can you learn after a year or two and what’s not so crucial? And I started writing down the things that I was doing at the beginning and I was like, okay, you do crisis communications. You know, you’re representing, in my case, a stock traded company where it’s not unheard of that something that is publicly said in really impacts the value of a company. Right. The valuation you are involved in, strategies you. In my case, or in our case, we have projects that impact directly the game and content that goes into the game.
And I was starting to realize that I don’t understand why people treat this as such a junior profession. Because of course, it’s easy to do the basic thing.
Steve McLeod
Moderate the Discord server or something.
Carolin Wendt
Exactly, exactly. But even there, you can do it in a way that is just, you know, almost like robotic. Just watching out for keywords and just, you know, being there. Or you can do it with a human twist that actually engages people, makes them come back, motivates people to give feedback. Because the more feedback you get as a company, the better ultimately.
Because why do you make games? Because you want to reach as many people as possible, usually and entertain them or evoke some sort of emotion out of them. And how do you do that if you don’t know what people think about it?
Steve McLeod
I 100% agree.
Carolin Wendt
Like, how do you know that you succeed? So, this is one thing that I really reaffirmed for myself that it’s a way more. It can be a way more senior profession than I think the industry treats at times.
And I think that was very nice for me because it gave me a lot of confidence of actually wanting to defend the role a bit and stick to it. Let’s see how long this lasts. I hope forever.
Steve McLeod
Have you received invitations to speak at events because of the book?
Carolin Wendt
Yes, I have.
I have. And I’m very lucky and honored that this is the case. And I try to go to as many as I can. Of course, I have to somehow align it also with our company. Because we are a busy company and we have projects. But I really like speaking to students and newcomers. So I also recently gave a talk, earlier this year, it’s been a while, gave a talk in a university in Germany just at a local game dev mixer, which is now, it’s not GDC, but it’s also talking straight to the people that might need it and benefit from it.
So I really enjoy these things, I think even more. So the number of people reaching out to me for help has increased, which is great, but also makes me wish that we had more resources that, you know, this is a bit more spread out and that people can find it easily and don’t have to be so courageous to reach out because it also takes. I know I will not curse. It also takes a lot of courage to reach out to someone that you perceive as like, I don’t know, I don’t know how people perceive me, but probably quite senior, if you just look at the title and the company. And it takes courage to reach out. And many juniors or students don’t have it. And I always say the sad thing.
Steve McLeod
It selects for people of certain personality traits. So some people just won’t contact you because they feel they can’t.
Carolin Wendt
Exactly.
And that’s the point that makes me. That saddens me because as much as I like my extroverts. Right. And I mean, I have some introverts that reach out to me and I’m so happy that they did. But there’s some people that are just very shy or maybe insecure or maybe they don’t feel so secure in their English in the first place. Or in the English and German, because community managers are all around the world and I just wish we had some more – I don’t know – I don’t even know what it would be, but some resources that would take this level of personal courage out of the picture.
Steve McLeod
Good answer.
Are there any other ways the book has impacted your career apart from just becoming the go to person for people wanting advice?
Carolin Wendt
I think it just made me more conscious of now I will not quote specifically Spiderman, even though it itches me, but I think I became more conscious of that what you put out matters to people. And the thing that you mentioned about the event where you went to and people mentioned my book like I didn’t have this in my head. And I think that I tend to forget that people might look at what I do and what I say. So it definitely has made me more patient with people and more, you know, okay, I will, I would try to give advice.
On the other hand, it didn’t fully because I already was on track for my current position at CD Projekt Red and the book didn’t really impact this.
It did give me insights on now, you know, I’m currently, for example, hiring for a Chinese community manager and writing a book about going into the industry and then hiring is an interesting dichotomy because you, you’re almost like you’re talking about yourself in third person.
So I’m hoping that it’s making me more empathetic to people because for sure I’ve started giving CVs also a look that are like from outside the industry, but with a passion and a private drive. Maybe I wouldn’t have before.
Steve McLeod
Okay, so it’s expanded your mind as to who would make a good community manager.
Carolin Wendt
Yes, yes. And then maybe it has impacted my career in a way that I don’t even know yet. Right. I don’t want to rule that out, that I just published it not even a year ago, so who knows?
Who knows?
Steve McLeod
You’re now perceived as an expert. In some ways you’re the same person, in some ways you’re not, because you actually did all this research. But let’s say you are more or less the same person with the same views, the same knowledge, but people perceive you differently for having created this thing.
Carolin Wendt
I think what it also shown me even more is that we have a beautiful community of community managers.
I already knew before, kind of, but this has really driven it home. Because for example, the book has also four chapters from other people that were or are in community management.
And I just reached out to them and some of them have never met in person and I just reached out to them and said, hey, I really respect what you’re doing. You cover an area that I have no expertise in. And I think it’s important, would you be in for it? And they said yes. And when the book came out, I got so much support from within the community manager bubbles or even just the survey, because I – we didn’t mention that yet – that I was also doing a survey that I just put out on like some Discords and like social media of, hey, if you work in community management or used to work in community management, here are some questions, like, what would you like people to know? What are red flags for you? What strength do you think you like? What are the strengths for people?
Because I didn’t want to have my own bias cloud the book too much, right. Because I am just one person that, you know, lives in Germany and works in the European industry, so I can’t cover all everything.
And so many people have responded and were so gracious with their time. And even now I see community managers recommended to other people that it feels very nice to know that in this industry we have it.
Steve McLeod
I’d like to say thank you myself for writing the book. It helped me get. It was like a crash course for me into the industry.
I’ll tell you some other time. This is not about telling my story, so I’ll tell it some other time about why I want to know so much about community management. But it was very helpful for me, so thank you for writing it. I wish we had another half an hour to keep talking, but unfortunately we’ve run out of time. And I still have one more very important question for you.
The final question, the most important, important question I ask in every episode of this podcast. What game have you been playing lately?
Carolin Wendt
Oh, I am losing my life to Dragon Age: The Veilguard.
If I wish I could show you in my house. Bioware is the reason I work in the games industry on an emotional level, I think, because, you know, in the early 90s, I was playing on Nintendo consoles – I was playing on the NES and stuff. And then my brother, my older brother brought home Neverwinter Nights.
And from that day, I was PC. I was PC gaming all the way. And then Baldur’s Gate and Dragon Age and Mass Effect and all of them. So I’m a giant lover of what they do. And they released their game not even a full week ago. I mean, maybe by the time this comes out, more than a week ago.
And I’ve been playing 25+ hours at this point, which might not sound much too many, but for people that have a job, you know, the commitment.
Steve McLeod
This is a common story I hear of community managers is they don’t actually get much time to play games these days. But you’re making an effort to make sure you buck that trend.
Carolin Wendt
Yes, I am. Also, I want to give one indie shout out. So it’s not only AAA. The Plucky Squire.
Steve McLeod
The Plucky Squire.
Carolin Wendt
The Plucky Squire is – I don’t even know how to explain it. It’s a small company founded by industry veterans and they made a game that is both 2D and 3D and it’s like, kind of like old school Zelda, but modern twist and it’s so far beautiful. I haven’t played the full thing yet because Dragon Age came along and, you know, gave me no time for anything else.
Steve McLeod
I think I’ll have to look up the Plucky Squire. You’ve got me intrigued.
Carolin Wendt
Yeah, I always want to give at least one shout out to an indie game because I think they deserve it.
Steve McLeod
They do.
Well, that’s all we have time for today. Carolin, thanks again for being on the show.
Carolin Wendt
Thank you very much for the invitation. I wish we had half an hour more as well.
Steve McLeod
Me too. Where can listeners get in touch if they’d like to know more about what we’ve discussed today or would like to know more about your book?
Carolin Wendt
Yes, I am coshy_90 on Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, and Steam as well. But on Bluesky, I am just coshy. because my handle was free, so I was very lucky.
Steve McLeod
I’ll make sure we have links to all of them in the show notes and a link to your book as well.
Carolin Wendt
Thank you. Thank you.
Steve McLeod
Okay, Bye, Carolin.
Carolin Wendt
Bye. Thank you.
Steve McLeod
Bye, everybody.
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