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“You cannot teach this in a college class” with Kayla Goullaud

(You can also watch this episode on YouTube.)

Today’s guest is Kayla Goullaud, an experienced community manager who has worked on EverQuest 2, Forza Motorsport, and the Forza Horizon franchise. She also spent years with the Xbox Live Policy and Enforcement team, tackling everything from player bans to community safety.

We chat about the complexities of game community management, the challenges of player moderation, and the importance of context in enforcement decisions. Kayla shares insights on breaking into the industry, the evolving role of community managers, and why people remain the most valuable data point in gaming communities.

Games mentioned in this episode:

Find Kayla on:

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Interview transcription

Steve McLeod
So today I’m joined by Kayla Goullaud, whose pronunciation I had to double check. Kayla has a ton of community management experience.

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah.

Steve McLeod
She’s worked on EverQuest 2, on the Forza Motorsport, and the Forza Horizon franchise of which I am a big fan. And she spent many years with the Xbox Live Policy and Enforcement team. Welcome to the show, Kayla.

Kayla Goullaud
Thank you for having me.

Steve McLeod
It’s a pleasure to have you on the show. I’m going to resist the urge to just talk the whole episode about Forza because I’ve played Forza Horizon 3, 4, and 5 so much. Which ones were you involved in?

Kayla Goullaud
Let’s see when I came in The big thing was Forza Horizon 3 I came in to work on Forza Horizon 3 in Australia Everybody loved that I came into the development cycle for Forza Horizon 4 and that is what I had the most experience on though during development of 4 I did have a lot of insight into 5 which is very hard to keep under wraps, you know, I knew the location, all of that.

Steve McLeod
That’s right, that’s the Australian one.

Steve McLeod
Oh yeah, was the big thing everybody was guessing. Number five was Mexico. Yeah, I liked that one a lot. But four was my favorite. I liked the seasons thing they had where I think every week it was a new season as in like seasons of the year. I really liked that effect. What did you do exactly on Forza Horizon? What was your role?

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah.

Kayla Goullaud
They brought me in next to or under their main community manager, Brian Ekberg at the time. Great individual, great person to work for. I was a bit of a hybrid in that I did both community management, creating and running their contests for screenshots or videos because Forza Horizon had such a profound photo mode.
and a great way to create content. The other big part of that was I was brought in to manage their enforcement side of things, right? Like the policy enforcement team, Turn 10 Studios and Playground Games are both under Microsoft, they’re also under Microsoft. So I was brought in primarily to review videos and seeing if people were intentionally racing poorly.
especially in the motorsport. I worked on some of the motorsport stuff as well. Find cheaters, you know, people either cheating software side or hardware side, making inappropriate liveries and taking inappropriate pictures of cars, you know, all of that. And I kind of restructured that over time. So the way you would respond to the people asking why they were banned.
The policies, you know, are you banned for three days, seven days? What type of action, discernment, what types of punishment, things like that, which is something I had a lot of experience in working with Xbox Live Policy and Enforcement Team (XBLPET). So that was my main two jobs there.

Steve McLeod
was that? I well first of all I was I was thinking like what could people do that was inappropriate in Forza at least in Horizon and I didn’t even think livery because there’s not a lot of places you’re actually creating content in that game as a player but livery players find a way don’t they they find a way yeah

Kayla Goullaud
Mm-hmm. They find a way to create anything and most of it isn’t I’m trying to be offensive and I’m trying to offend people. It’s like Haha. I know this is Controversial I’m gonna put it on the side of a car like, you know The the free candy vans was such a big silly thing that people created all the time

Steve McLeod
Mm-hmm.

Steve McLeod
Sorry, the free.

Kayla Goullaud
People would often put free candy on the side of like van cars as like a Haha, get in my van sort of thing. It was so silly.

Steve McLeod
Uh huh. I see. Uh, I see. In the Tour de France race they have in France every year. I watched this fantastic documentary about, um, these two Dutch people whose job is to drive along the day’s, um, course. So they very, they cycle about 200, 300 kilometers a day. And, uh, you guys through all these little French towns, I’m sure everybody knows about it, but for the sake of the story, I’m just going to go into detail and

Kayla Goullaud
Okay.

Steve McLeod
every little village they go through is some smart Alec in that village. She thinks it would be great to go and spray paint genitals on the road or something like that. So that when the national or international cameras come, it’ll be there and they’ll go, ha ha. So there’s two Dutch guys who have to get up early, drive the entire course, checking for this overnight, uh, graffiti or spray painting. And then they turn what they see on the road into like,
They spray over it, they add to it, they turn it into extraterrestrials or something like aliens or just little patterns. you know, why do people do this? I don’t know, but we humans do.

Kayla Goullaud
Oh, Yeah, the same with the Nurburgring, one of the biggest racetracks in the world. There’s a big long stretch of it where it’s it’s common to put graffiti or spray paint things on it on that long stretch of straight. And same thing. they have to get rid of the worst of it before anything major happens on TV.

Steve McLeod
It’s such a job that you have to describe to people. What do you do? Anyway, we’ve gone in all the wrong order. I’m supposed to start by asking about you, how you got into becoming a community manager, your path there. Tell us about it. How did you get started?

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah.

Kayla Goullaud
So this is actually something I’ve perfected for my interviews. My love of community comes from the game EverQuest, created by Sony Online Entertainment, came out in 1999. My dad brought it home one day and was like, oh, I found this new game. We’re going to play. And I was kind of excited about it. He installs it. And there goes the rest of my childhood.
I played EverQuest from, and EverQuest 2, from 1999 to 2017 about. Less so in the 2010s, you know, starting my career and everything. But I have some really specific and great memories from the community in EverQuest, right? There wasn’t a lot of social media. There wasn’t really external communication programs, despite like Ventrilo maybe later.
So all of that community interaction and it happened in the game. There’s no voice chat, right? You’re doing it all through text. And I had a specific moment when I was like about 11 where I’m just starting and looking for how to do things. Somebody comes up and helps me. Their name was Winter White. They then proceeded to help me get armor, learn how to summon pets.
all of the little basic things you do in the game. Years later, I went to my first Sony event. What was it called at the time? It wasn’t EverQuest Live. It was something similar. It was a fan made event in Las Vegas, their first one. And I met that person, Winter White there, and she had no idea. I was just like this 13 year old little human that was like, I have no idea what I’m doing. And it was I didn’t cry about it at the time.

Steve McLeod
Right.

Kayla Goullaud
But like years later, I’m thinking about that. I’m like that EverQuest is the reason that I got into community management because I had such positive experiences that I was like, this is something that needs to be fostered and not in those exact words, right? wasn’t, you know, 13 year old me. It wasn’t like I need to foster these environments. But those those little moments and all of the community togetherness I experienced, negative and positive is kind of where what led me to
Any here. So when I turned 18, I was like, I need to volunteer to be a community, not community manager, like a community volunteer in EverQuest 2 where you could run, you could help answer tickets, you could run small quests in zones for players, which was a lot of fun. As soon as I turned 24, I beat the door down at Nintendo, got myself a job as game tester in Seattle and
The rest, yeah, here I am.

Steve McLeod
Well, that’s amazing. And then you actually got to work on EverQuest 2.

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah, and not in like, you know, a paid sense, but I was like, they have this volunteer program. This is what I want to do.

Steve McLeod
Aha. Wow, that’s fantastic. So, sorry, what was the name of the person who helped you winter white?

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah

Kayla Goullaud
Winter White, that was their character name in game, yeah.

Steve McLeod
Okay, and she helped you in game or in forums? What was the in game? Wow.

Kayla Goullaud
In game, it was all in game. was sitting outside of one of the cities. They came up and asked if I needed any help and I was like, I don’t know where to find this for my spells. And then, you they got me armor, just all those starting helpful things. Yeah.

Steve McLeod
And she wasn’t employed by Nintendo or the EverQuest team, she just happened to be a player who liked helping. Wow, that’s really nice. And then eventually you end up working for the Xbox team with Forza and so on. what’s it like? We’ve already talked a little bit about, you know, people just like to see what they can do, to bend the rules. But what is it like telling somebody to bend? How do they respond?

Kayla Goullaud
No. Yeah.

Kayla Goullaud
So the way we did it, and this was arguably to keep a lot of people safe, especially on the team, right? You know, when people are banned, they’re mad. That just makes sense, right? Punitive action. There’s a weird sense of justice, you know, when you’re just playing games out in the wild as a person and you see like somebody being really mean, somebody being
aggressive towards other people or being unfair in a game and you’re just like, why would I do this if I can just cheat? It’s frustrating when you’re on the other side of that you can do something about it and at least for me It was it made me want to be the most accurate I could right it wasn’t like oh I have power now it was like I have a responsibility and so You know when you take those actions, it was you know, it was it was fulfilling in a way
And then we had a system where you could write in and you could be like, hey, why am I banned or whatever? People said all kinds of things from, you know, knowing what they did and being like, I’m sorry, or threatening us. And we had a bunch of… Sorry, go ahead.

Steve McLeod
And when they write in, so there was some type of email address or a public forum where they could write to, how would they contact you?

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah, so when you, it might be a little bit different now, but when you logged into your Xbox Live account again, you would have a notification that says you’ve been suspended for this many days for this reason. And we had a bunch of subset reasons of harassment, cheating, bunch of different categories. And then there was an option to, I believe from the player side, it was, uh, you were
able to inquire about why you were banned from the UI itself. And on our end, that would come into a queue where we could then answer those people with a subset of… We had a bunch of different pre-built-out responses, but almost nobody used those exclusively. We used those and then added on to them. Yeah.

Steve McLeod
I think that’s the best way. It helps you get your thoughts together, but then you need to customize it.

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah. And sometimes people came in really angry or upset or like I said, threatening. And sometimes you just gave them that one response because, you know, this isn’t worth getting worked up over and there’s no, we’re not providing any information that’s gonna help them further. know? Yeah. And those…
Those pre-built out responses were created by our communications manager, right? And as a team, we were able to make suggestions or changes or whatever. One of the big things that we always said on that team was context is king. Because it is. Context is such a huge part of that job and the way you’re responding to people. Because the whole point is not to take punitive action.
or punish, it’s to change behavior.

Steve McLeod
Okay, I like that because to some degree you’re expected to be a judge and jury without any like formal legal training. And I like that, that it’s not really out there to punish. We just want to make the environment safe and help people change their behavior. I really like that. And it must have been hard though in some of the cases. I just can imagine what some small subset of players must have been like.

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah.

Kayla Goullaud
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Kayla Goullaud
Sure, mean, XPLPET, and I think they they’ve changed their name now to Xbox safety, I think maybe. Keep in mind, was this was 2014 to 2017.

Steve McLeod
Okay.

Kayla Goullaud
What was I gonna say? During that time, it wasn’t just like, hey, you’re cheating or you’re harassing other people because you could report anything to us or you have a bad game or tag. There are other parts of that team that handle things like NCMEC (National Center for Missing & Exploited Children), so keeping children safe on the internet, working with police to find potentially really bad actors.
tracking down fraud rings or really built out groups of people that were cheating, but they were doing it as a business, right? So they were causing more harm to the service than others.

Steve McLeod
we’re doing as a service. Can you explain what that means?

Kayla Goullaud
So some people that learned how to cheat or for example you’re playing Call of Duty Black Ops. Somebody is inviting people to a specific lobby after they pay them ten dollars to get all the guns in the game or all the guns in the game just instantly or the highest rank. And sometimes those people are making thousands and thousands of dollars a day, right? So there’s different teams for different specialized things.
So it wasn’t just, you know, you’re banned for cheating or harassing somebody, which are all important as well. But this is a live service with any type of person on there that can upload anything. Yeah, in any country.

Steve McLeod
in any country too, right? They’re not just, you’re based in the US, but these people could be in other countries with different cultural norms and approaches.

Kayla Goullaud
Yep, different ways that they talk, different things that are okay to them, but you know, seeing them in a vacuum can be different. That’s why context is so important, right?

Steve McLeod
So inside this team, I guess you all had avatars or it was completely anonymous. Like they were just writing to the unit, to the team and being answered by the team, or they were getting answered by individuals that they could see like an avatar or pseudonym.

Kayla Goullaud
Yes.

Kayla Goullaud
Everything was anonymous, right? We weren’t barred from telling people where we worked. was highly… People were like, you really shouldn’t do that, and for good reason, right? And I have some more on that. But we were all anonymous when you were replied to. I believe it came to you as…
XBL pet like Theta or XBL pet Alpha or different, you know, different names like that. So nobody ever knew who we were. However, the higher up you are on that team, know, like FTEs, full time employees, things like that, are often more public facing because they had to be. And a lot of people on that team got threatened.
Twice during my time there, we had bomb threats to the building, so we had to go into lockdown. Do you know what swatting is? Right? Yeah. A couple people on the team…

Steve McLeod
Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard about this. is when, uh, got swatted. This is when somebody calls, uh, the, the nine one one and says, Hey, there’s like somebody armed at this address. So they send the SWAT team and it’s actually nobody there. It’s just doing it really okay. And this happened to a couple of people on the team. Wow. Wow. This is like, this is the most intense side of community management I’ve ever heard, ever heard of. is.

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah, or somebody’s being held hostage.

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah, yep, higher absolutely people fit through that way.

Kayla Goullaud
It’s the part you don’t think about. And keep in mind that this was my… This was my… career introduction to community management. I didn’t come in on the side where you’re… you’re… you’re streaming for people, you’re doing all the more quote unquote fun stuff, creating content. You’re… being yelled at, you’re being threatened, you’re telling people why they did something. You’re seeing awful…
awful things on a daily basis. You know, we monitored videos too, like if it was, had a person in it, it came to us before it went to the live service. And we just had to click next in that queue and be like

Steve McLeod
don’t even want to ask. Not on air anyway. If we were talking in private, I would want to hear all these stories, but hey, listeners, we are trying to respect the, I don’t know, what would you say? Respect the rights of the people who have worked on that team. yeah.

Kayla Goullaud
And sometimes we saw awful things, yeah.

Kayla Goullaud
Exactly. And a lot of people saw horrible things and we didn’t have the greatest access to mental health care, especially at that time, you know, in. In 2014, right, we’re all young, 20 somethings. And it just suffice it to say, think about.

Kayla Goullaud
why you’re not like if you’re scrolling TikTok or Instagram or something, we like to get mad at like, sometimes you’ll see content and you’re like, why are they not taking care of this? Think about how every time you scroll, you know, you’re watching thousands of videos over the course of a week, you’re not seeing horrible stuff every other video because of how sophisticated systems have got to keep that stuff away from you or people that are there to review that sort of content before it ever reaches you.

Steve McLeod
So how did you and the team manage to stay on the level without having a breakdown or without like getting this fortress mentality? What was the approach?

Kayla Goullaud
Something the team kind of did was we were all kind of friends. We’re also kind of people in life that have seen a lot of stuff and dealt with a lot on a personal level that doing this, we were a little bit more resilient to it, right? At the time, you see something bad and you’re like, yikes, or you have a little bit of gallows humor. We also had a lot of meetings on the team that were created by the leads.
to discuss what we see, to realign where we’re taking action, to talk about the stuff that we’ve seen. And we didn’t, we weren’t like cut off from access to healthcare and stuff like that. Like we were able to find mental health resources. I would have liked it to have been a little better structured. Yeah, it.

Steve McLeod
Maybe it would be today in 2025.

Kayla Goullaud
I have no idea what that team looks like now and how it functions. This is all from, you know, I left that team in 2017. But yeah.

Steve McLeod
a few years ago. Well, let’s not just dwell on this darker side of community management in the whole interview. So let’s talk about something more positive. Tell me, how do you learn to do community management better?

Kayla Goullaud
Sure, sure.

Kayla Goullaud
Um, let’s see, like my own arguably biased answer is experience. And that’s because, like I said, the way I got into it is by having these incredible experiences in gaming communities. I’ve been a gamer since playing Quake 1 when I was like eight on the PC that might… Nope. I used a lot of god mode just to kill things. I was, you know, I was like, I’m just here to have fun. And so my…

Steve McLeod
Were you good?

Steve McLeod
Haha

Kayla Goullaud
My answer for that is just getting experience. The caveat there is all of the experience you’re going to get as a community manager or could get for being a community manager is not exclusive to stuff you learn on the job. I broke into the industry using all of the experience that I got as a volunteer, knowing what I know about the gaming community by being embedded in it.
Um, and then I, so I never got the opportunity to go to college for anything. I don’t have a degree in communications. Um, and that’s just been my, the way I function was always just like being scrappy, get in my teeth. Um, if there’s something new I need to do that I haven’t done before, I’m, I’m Googling or I’m messaging people. I’m being annoying. Uh, in a sense. Um.

Steve McLeod
Mm-hmm. Positively annoying, not negatively annoying, I hope.

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah, yeah, I’m finding, I’m putting aside my ego and I’m trying to find information to best do the thing that I want to do. And that all of this was just experience. I think as a community manager and in a job like this, you’re, you have a good opportunity and are lucky enough to find information online. You get information.
from people in your network. Networking is a huge one, right? If you just ask questions, people really want to help you because people like to tell you the stuff that they know for whatever reason. They’re excited to tell you who they are, what they know, how to do something better for yourself because it comes from them.

Kayla Goullaud
And again, community management isn’t just in gaming, right? There’s community managers for everything. And I think being human is the best experience. God, that sounds like such a line. But being human is the best experience for community management. These days, there’s a lot of free resources for…
learning new things, you know, even things like LinkedIn Premium, I think has a way to connect with other people in your industry to take their small classes or get information from them. Excuse me. So, yeah, it’s all it’s all experience and it’s not just experience on the job, though coming from the way that I had to do it. You do have to learn to turn your I play video games into
business words into industry words.

Steve McLeod
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. One of the reasons why I’m doing this podcast, uh, the first season and now the second season, or in case I didn’t say, uh, on the air, you’re the first guest on season two. thank you for helping me start season two. Um, one of the reasons why I’m doing this is because. Well, our product usually it’s community managers who bring it into the organization. And I wanted to find out what resources there were for community managers to see if what I could tap into and help with. it just turned out to be really hard to find.

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah.

Steve McLeod
definitive resources online. A lot of it seems to be exactly as you described. It’s like networking, who you know, learning on the job. So this is, I find interesting because if I look for other sides of the video games industry, there’s no end of resources on the internet. You’re kind of curious why it’s not there for community managers when such an important role. Any theories?

Kayla Goullaud
All

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah.

Kayla Goullaud
couple theories and these are all probably stemming from my personal hurts as both so many female presenting and in a community role in the gaming industry. There is a big controversy, at least from what I see, of whether or not community managers and community people are considered developers. I’m of the mind that they are.
because they’re literally developing communities. But at the same time, as a community manager, you have to learn to speak developer speak so that you can translate that information back and forth.

Kayla Goullaud
But I think my theory is that it’s a very, not thankless, right, because you are player facing, right? But a very underrated role when it comes to gaming specifically. You take all the information back and forth. You are the face of a company or a game or whatever.
But all of the stuff that’s happening, know, changes in a game, making the changes players want, that all comes from developers. And these days, developers are becoming more player-facing. They’re doing the videos. They’re talking. They’re doing streams and all that stuff, which is great. But I think people focus on where, like, the tactile action is coming from, where the coding is happening, and that’s OK.

Kayla Goullaud
I think it’s just because it’s more ambiguous what community management is and what we do.

Steve McLeod
It’s very ambiguous. Is this a real problem? Yeah.

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah, and it’s different for every role, right? You could be doing streaming mainly for one role like I did at turn 10, or you could be just writing publications or newsletters in a different role. So it’s very ambiguous. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve McLeod
Mm-hmm.

Steve McLeod
Or just on Reddit answering all the player, or the player complaints. Yeah. Um, moving on, do you have any tips for people wanting to become a community manager?

Kayla Goullaud
This is harder these days, especially with how rocky the gaming industry is now. But if it’s specifically in gaming…
I assume you’re a gamer and if you’re a gamer, you already have.
experience so much experience in being a community manager in gaming that is unteachable. You cannot teach it in a college class. You cannot read a document and learn it. It’s not a step by step process. So think about the way you communicate already with people in a game. You’re already doing a lot of the work. You already know what they’re saying. You know what they’re
you have a gut feeling of what’s prominent and what’s not prominent in the gaming community that you’re in. What I did when I started at turn 10, one of the first…

Kayla Goullaud
The first tasks I ever got from the community manager I was working for was, hey, go through all of our reviews on like Amazon, Steam, what have you, and pick out the top issues that you see. I don’t care what they are. It could be that the disk is broken or something unrelated to us, but he wanted me to start training my gut and then practicing turning that gut feeling
into information that can be read by a developer or a coder or have you and make it so that they feel like they can take action on it. As far as practical things of getting your foot in the door, a lot of the times starting as a tester is good experience or being a discord mod for a community that you really like.
All of those things are work and often unpaid work, but you have the experience over somebody who isn’t in those communities or hasn’t had or has just done a communications degree. And don’t get me wrong, communications degrees are great. And it’s something that I want to get one day. But look at the people around you, see what they’re doing, become a tester.

Steve McLeod
Mm-hmm.

Kayla Goullaud
There are a million jobs in the gaming industry, like quality analysts, that are under-thinked, but when you have that experience, it goes a long way.

Steve McLeod
Great, great answer. The time has gone past quickly. I think I spent way too much time talking with you about Forza and the Microsoft pet team, the policy and enforcement team or the X-Bots live team. But there is one very important question I still have to ask. So you said that you played EverQuest and EverQuest 2 up until 2017. I noted that in my head and it got me wondering what game are you playing now? What feels that need that EverQuest? Well, why did you stop with EverQuest 2?

Kayla Goullaud
That’s okay.

Steve McLeod
Did it get discontinued? Did they turn off the service?

Kayla Goullaud
Um.
No, in fact, Everquest 1 is still going strong to this day. They have a new expansion set for the spring, I believe.

Steve McLeod
Okay, so the question, in case my question was unclear, because I think I went off on a tangent, what game is it that you play these days, or what games?

Kayla Goullaud
Ah man, the past two weeks have been game-less as I, you know, as I look for a new role in the community. I think something I’ve really enjoyed, which is controversial, has been Star Wars Jedi: Survivor. I’ve been both playing some and watching people play it and it had a rocky launch, but story’s good, you get immersed in it. The game that has a community that I’ve been really enjoying is Deep Rock Galactic, right?

Steve McLeod
Okay?

Steve McLeod
Mm-hmm. Everybody, everybody’s impressed with their community.

Kayla Goullaud
There’s not a lot of typing communication. Yeah! They’ve done such a good job playing with people in that game, even when there’s no text communication. You just feel each other, and that’s been so, so enjoyable. I’ve so much fun with that.

Steve McLeod
Mm-hmm.

Steve McLeod
Well, have you been playing that or watching?

Kayla Goullaud
So Deep Rock Galactic, I’ve been playing a lot of Deep Rock Galactic. I keep wanting to say Star Wars Galaxies, but that game doesn’t exist anymore. Outlaws has been really fun to like watch. It’s like watching a story unfold. Yeah.

Steve McLeod
You

Steve McLeod
Okay, and why did you stop playing EverQuest 2?

Kayla Goullaud
Around 2017, 2018 is really when my career took off with Forza. I didn’t really have the time anymore. And at that point, I was really high-end raiding, right? We were first or second guild worldwide in terms of taking down content. And I just couldn’t sink the five hours a night into rating anymore, right? I had to jump into my career.

Steve McLeod
Uh-huh.

Steve McLeod
That is such a common story that the people who work the hardest in the games industry don’t have time to play the games that brought them into the industry. Oh well, you know, I guess that’s life. Look, that’s all we have time for today, Kayla. So thank you again for being on the show and for helping kick off season two.

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah, it is.

Kayla Goullaud
Right.

Kayla Goullaud
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I want to say one last thing for anybody looking to get into community management, and that is everybody’s going to want data points, right? They’re going to say, what are these data points? Where do we go from here? But nobody wants to talk to people. People are your most important data point. And it’s your job to turn those people into data points while still remembering that they’re people.

Steve McLeod
Nice, I like that. That’s a great way to finish off. Okay, bye Kayla. Kayla. Bye everybody.

Kayla Goullaud
Bye, thank you so much.